Undoing Atheism?

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  • Garlandguy reply Stefano, even when I disagree with you, I really respect your reasoning. Keep up the good work!
  • [ – ] pipsantos reply So there is god. So what? What has it got to do with our lives. There is water 10 meters below the ground. We pump it up and water our crops. We harvest those crops using manmade machineries. We process the harvested crops. We distribute them. We eat. In what part of the process do we need god there?
    • [ – ] discipulus parent reply If there is a God, who do you think put the water there for you to pump? Who gave mankind the knowledge to build the machines? Who created the first plants so that we can farm them? This silly argument reminds me of an old joke: God was once approached by a scientist who said, "Listen God, we’ve decided we don’t need you anymore. These days we can clone people, transplant organs and do all sorts of things that used to be considered miraculous." God replied, "Don’t need Me huh? How about we put your theory to the test. Why don’t we have a competition to see who can make a human being?" The scientist agrees, so God declares they should do it like He did in the good old days when He created Adam. "Fine" says the scientist as he bends down to scoop up a handful of dirt. "Whoa!" says God, shaking his head in disapproval. "Not so fast. Get your own dirt."
      • [ – ] pipsantos parent reply Who's god was it who did all of the above? Was it Zeus? Allah? Bathala? YHWH?
        • [ – ] discipulus parent reply Well friend, that's a totally different topic altogether.. not one I suggest for an atheist. If you are a truly open minded individual, then my advice to you is the first thing would be to determine for yourself whether or not there is a god at all.. it doesn't matter which one... if you come to the conclusion there aren't any at all, then there's no need to go any further... but if you do come to the belief that there must be an intelligent designer who created everything we see, then you begin your own journey into determining who that is.
          • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply discipulus : Of course, it matters which one. We have to know what you mean when you say the word "god." Does this god have a physical body?
            • [ – ] discipulus parent reply Of course ULTIMATELY it matters which one, but what I meant was this: when you don't know whether there even is a god or not... at THAT point it doesn't matter which one.. the only thing at THAT point that matters is to determine whether or not a god is even plausible. Now, if you come to the conclusion that indeed there must be one... THEN and ONLY then do you need to set out on your journey of discovering which one that is. One step at a time, friend.. And to answer your question about a physical body, that depends on the nature of god now, doesn't it? I am a Christian and as such I don't believe that God REQUIRES a body - after all, He created bodies, so to suggest that HE requires one is silly. Indeed to suggest He requires anything at all in this universe or to be bound by the laws of this universe is indeed silly - if He created everything that we see, then how can He be subject to any of it? Here's an example: pretend everything we see is a virtual reality.. like the Matrix.. a...morend God is the programmer... would such a programmer be limited to the laws of the program he wrote? Of course not! He would be outside - in the "real" world for crying out loud. That's why Stefan's argument about God not conforming to evolutionary principles is silly. Why would he be bound by anything we know of? All the laws of nature and this universe are subject to HIM, not the other way around. That being said; I love Stefan's videos - he is a very smart guy and I agree with 99.9% of what he says about most things... but he has a blind spot on this topic (in my humble opinion). Going back to whether God has a body, yes... Jesus was born of mankind, so He is God and took on human flesh. Does he need a body? No. Does He have one? Yes.
              • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply discipulus : How can I determine whether or not a god is plausible unless I know what you mean when you use the word "god"? Are you saying that if someone tells me that the god he follows has a body, you wouldn't consider that to be a "god."?
                • [ – ] discipulus parent reply Is it not clear from my comments what I mean by God? I mean one who is all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent. He must be eternal (not bound by time) for He created time, He must be immaterial, for He created the physical universe and He must be all powerful for not only did He create everything we see, but the very laws of nature that have been put into place. This has always been a bit much for our minds to comprehend, but in the 21st century I think we can have a much better idea about this than our ancestors. I will attempt an example, albeit a flawed one: Imagine a programmer creates a virtual reality like the Matrix.. and everyone inside this system is some kind of "AI" if you will. They, being part of the system cannot really comprehend what is outside the system because everything they know, all their experiences are inside the system.. their experience and knowledge is bound by the rules of the program they are living in. The programmer may be considered all powerful, beca...moreuse he can code anything he wants.. say, write a few lines of code to make food fall from the sky or whatever.. to the AIs, this would appear to be some kind of miracle. Likewise, the programmer would be all knowing, because he can view every event that ever happened throughout all the history of his simulated universe whenever he wants.. past, present and possibly even future to some degree... and he would be considered all knowing, because he knows everything about the universe in which these AIs live because he created it. Like I said, it's not a perfect analogy, but it should help give you some idea of what God is and why we can't put Him in a test tube, so to speak. It's silly to try think of Him as being bound by anything within this universe. Regarding figuring out whether this is true or not, you need to start with the very basics of what you believe to be true about the universe. Is it really more plausible that everything sprang out of nothing rather than there having been an intelligent designer? Firstly, neither one of these things can be proven without a doubt, so we should respect each other's opinions on the matter. Among other things, here are some of the reasons why theism makes perfect sense to me: 1. Scientists today cannot create life in a laboratory, yet we're supposed to believe it somehow got started by chance in the vast ancient oceans. The idea that a few amino acids managed to put themselves together and then somehow found each other and made a living cell is ridiculous. 2. Pretty much all the so-called missing links were nonsense. For example, Piltdown man was a hoax and Nebraska man was based on a single tooth which later turned out to be that of a pig, Java man turned out to be a gibbon and then pretty much all of the others have been debunked as well. 3. The missing links are not only in the so-called human chain of evolution but in all forms of life, everywhere. Transitional fossils are missing all over the place. 4. Dinosaur blood cells have been found on multiple occasions.. how is that possible if they were supposed to have died out 65+ millions years ago? 5. The problem of the "Cambrian explosion" which refutes the idea of the tree of life. 6. The laws and constants of physics are balanced on a razor's edge for life to be able to exist. We're talking about the fine tuning of laws like gravity, the strong nuclear force (which holds protons and neutrons together), the electromagnetic force, etc., etc. Change any of these many laws and life cannot exist. Let's just take gravity for example: imagine a ruler divided up into 1 inch increments and stretched out across the universe (about 14 billion light years). The ruler represents the possible range for gravity. The setting could have been anywhere, but it just so happens to be just where it needs to be for life to be possible. Now change the force by moving the setting by just 1 inch compared to the width of the entire universe and the effect on life would be catastrophic. What are the chances? And that's just one of the constants. Combine that with the chances of the others and you can see it takes way more faith to be an atheist than a theist. 7. The existence of fossils: fossils are not created under normal conditions.. when an animal dies in the Savannah or wherever, it doesn't turn into a fossil.. it gets eaten by scavengers and/or decays very quickly. The conditions have to be just right to bury the creature without it having a chance to decay or be eaten - yet we find millions of them.. many that are really strange as well, like one fish in the middle of eating another fish.. how does that happen? Noah's flood makes perfect sense.. because it very rapidly (without warning) killed these creatures. It also accounts for the layers of sediment, which are obviously sorted and layed down by water... and for trees buried upright passing through many of these layers which obviously disprove it took millions of years to lay those layers down; the trees didn't hang around waiting millions of years to be buried by multiple layers.. that was the flood that caused that! Look into what happened from Mount St. Helen's in the 1980s to see these exact same effects. And many more reasons, but I can't put down everything here. If you're truly interested, watch a video by a guy called Lee Strobel titled, "The Case for a Creator". He is a journalist whose investigations in biology, chemistry, cosmology and physics spanning more than 20 years led him to believe in a Creator and then to Christ. His video can be found for free on YouTube. Also a Christian philosopher and apologist named William Lane Craig is pretty good at explaining this stuff. You can find many of his debates with atheists on YouTube as well.
                  • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply Discipulus : Does this God want to be worshipped?
                    • [ – ] discipulus parent reply I don't see how that's relevant to the question of His existence, but yes - He does ask us to worship Him. If I'm not mistaken, I believe your next question will be something like, "If He's so powerful, then why does He care whether we worship Him or not?". Worship is "to give honor, homage, reverence, respect, adoration, praise, or glory to a superior being." It would be arrogant for one human being to want the adulation of another because we recognize that most people are not qualitatively very different from one another. But God is not some exalted human being at the top of the mankind pyramid—He's in an entirely different category, where He is the only member. God demands worship because He and He alone is worthy of it. He is the only being that truly deserves worship. If He does exist and He created this entire universe and gave us life and an eternal spirit, who are we that we should be upset when He asks us to worship Him as an act of thankfulness, reverence and humility? And...more besides, He loves us more than we can even imagine. In a way we are like Him... the Bible tells us He made man in His image.. people sneer at this because they make the mistake of thinking it means God has 2 arms, 2 legs and a head, etc like us.. What the Bible is telling us is man is unique among all creation because we have been given a spirit - In Genesis, it says, "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." I believe this is a major reason why Lucifer became jealous of Man. He couldn't stand the thought that so lowly a creature from the dust of the Earth was given a spirit which in some small way resembles that of the Almighty God. I believe it's also why Jesus can die for man, but the fallen angels can have no forgiveness.. for God died to save His children - those that are the most like Him.. that He breathed life into. This is why He cares so much about our lives - if a human parent can be so heartbroken at how a child goes astray and destroys their life, why shouldn't God likewise care for us who are also His children? Now, even though we are His children, we must not make the mistake of assuming we are equal - far from it.. though He loves us, we must still learn to know our place.. and worship the King of the universe. Don't try to understand everything of what goes on in the spiritual realm - we cannot hope to understand how He thinks. Isaiah tells us, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD". Much like an ant could not comprehend the thoughts of man, how can man hope to comprehend the thoughts of God?
                      • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply discululus : It's not so much upset as puzzlement. If I could create universes, I don't see why it would even occur to me to ask you to worship me. Why would I possibly care about what you thought about me?
                        • [ – ] discipulus parent reply Like I said: we can't hope to understand every aspect of His nature... it's like an ant trying to understand a human.. except even more that that. However I can say simply that we should be grateful of the fact he gives us the free will to worship Him - He does not FORCE us to do His will, but wants us to make the choice for ourselves. That being said, we're told that when He comes back on that final day, that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord, whether we like it or not. When that day comes, I prefer to be doing so out of my own volition. Best wishes to you, friend.
                          • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply Discipulus : So you don't know why this God cares so much about what humans think of him? By the way, is this God male?
                            • [ – ] discipulus parent reply No, why would I know? I can speculate, but like I said: we can't hope to fully understand His mind. And we should remember that us who are created from the dust of the Earth (by Him) and are so small in this vast Universe which He created (just take a moment to consider the wisdom and power that it must take to create this Universe, seriously)... passing judgement on such a being would be both foolish and extremely arrogant. It would be wise to be humble in this. With regards to the question of whether He is male, it depends on what you mean. Of course God does not have a penis if that's what you're asking (at least not until He was born into the body of Jesus anyway and then only for some 33 years). However, He is always referred to as "He" and called "Father" and Jesus is the "Son". Why this is I am not certain, but I will tell you what I think: Genesis tells us that BOTH man AND woman are made in the image of God - we are equal in importance but different in our traits. I believe y...moreou will find that God's personality has attributes of all the best personality traits we consider masculine and feminine. And we refer to God as "Him" because that's the way He refers to Himself. People these days - especially feminists - are always trying to ignore the differences between men and women. This is ridiculous. We are different and we should not be jealous of each other, but rather learn to work together.. men and women can and should use their unique traits to build a stronger society together for the good of both sexes .. but when we start trying to be each other, society is in trouble. Anyway, time to get off of that rabbit trail... Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems to me like you may simply be trolling now and looking for some "gotcha". If you are being genuine, I'm happy to answer as best I can with my limited knowledge, but I think you will find it more productive to listen to those who are experts in the fields you are interested in... For example, if you have questions about the Big Bang or other cosmological questions, find out the arguments from a Christian astronomer or for the questions on evolution, find some Christians in the field of Biology I guess... but perhaps start with some general video like the one I mentioned before; "The Case for a Creator". And if you are asking these kinds of questions merely waiting for me to say something you consider stupid and so be happy to ignore my arguments, then I can only suggest to you that such an attitude is not in your own best interest and I will leave you with this quote from John Stuart Mill, On Liberty: "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form." So I say to you; don't brush off the arguments for creation as superstition, but study and understand why it is that people believe there was an intelligent designer. Then if you still believe there is no God, at least you have the satisfaction of being intellectually honest with yourself and knowing that you tackled the hard questions of your existence and that you know WHY it is that you believe what you believe. Otherwise, your faith in evolution is just as blind as those theists who don't care to question their own beliefs. Best wishes to you in any case. :-)
                              • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply discipulus : In that case, this particular God isn't male or female so I think it would be appropriate to use the pronoun It instead of He. Does It punish people who don't worship It?
                                • [ – ] discipulus parent reply "It" is most certainly not appropriate for that is not how He tells us to refer to Him... at least the Judeo-Christian God. Yes He tells us there will be a punishment... and I have no intention of going further along this path because now I'm convinced you're just trolling. Your intent is to use human morality to pass judgement on God, which is arrogant to say the least... but for the sake of argument, let's just say that He is not good (I don't agree, but let's just go with that).... so what? How is His character relevant to the question of whether or not He exists? Whether or not you like the way He thinks or acts, it has absolutely zero difference on whether He exists. Not an argument.
                                  • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply discipulus : Are you not human? Why do you get to pass judgement on God and I don't?
                                    • [ – ] discipulus parent reply And where exactly did I do that?
                                      • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply You wrote :but for the sake of argument, let's just say that He is not good (I don't agree, but let's just go with that).... so what?
                                        • [ – ] discipulus parent reply LOL... you're not serious, are you? So you're equating believing what God says about Himself to actually passing judgement on His morality? That is not the same thing. And come now; you know perfectly well that by "pass judgement" on Him that I mean having a highly negative opinion on His character - "judging" His character to be evil. Obviously when I say "pass judgement" that does not include having a positive opinion; after all, even Kim Jong Un wants his subjects to have a positive opinion of him, as does any dictator. So I think you are playing word games by pretending not to understand that I meant "pass judgement", in this context, is to have a negative opinion... particularly regarding one's character/morality. And again, all of this is totally besides the point. His true character is NOT relevant to the question of His existence. Indeed if you believe He does not exist and yet argue about His character, you must be somewhat soft in the head. From what I can tell, you are look...moreing to say He is not a God worth worshiping.. I suppose you'll likely bring up the argument of "If there is a God, why is there so much suffering?" and the like... and thereby fallaciously conclude He does not exist, because you cannot conceive of such a God who does not think the way you do and abide by your morals.. therefore, He must be a fairy tale.
                                          • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply Discipulus : So if God tells you to stone a baby to death, you'd do it without question?
                                            • [ – ] discipulus parent reply Here we go.. precisely where I thought you might be heading. I have answers for such questions which go much more in depth than I am willing to go into on an internet post which is supposed to be debating His existence and not His character, but suffice it to say He would not be asking anyone to do such a thing. You're going to say, "What about in the Old Testament when He ordered the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child among the Canaanites?". For one, these Canaanites were an exceedingly wicked people who participated in human sacrifice, most notably of their own children to Moloch! And God destroyed them in order to protect Israel, the nation that would eventually produce the Messiah.. without which nobody would be saved. The bloodline of Christ had to be protected from the time of Adam until the time of Christ... So until the time of Messiah, the bloodline and nation that Christ would come from had to be protected at all costs, which is also why Noah's flood happened... yo...moreu need to look at the bigger picture... God created man, He has the right to take our lives at any time He wants.. and if He so chooses to take the life of a few child sacrificing pagans to secure the salvation of mankind, well that's His prerogative. Since the resurrection of Christ we are now living in the age of grace... meaning the Father's wrath against man's incredible wickedness is being held at bay for the sake of the salvation of as many people as possible.
                                              • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply discipulus : You tell me that this God ordered the Israelites to kill children and you don't seem to see anything wrong with that. So how could you possibly think that it is impossible for God to ask you to stone a baby to death? Did God forbid the Israelites to kill the Canaanite babies? What age did a child have to be before the Israelites were supposed to kill them?
                                                • [ – ] discipulus parent reply You're not listening... you only hear what you want to hear. I know that it's impossible He would ask someone to kill babies based on knowing the bigger picture revealed in the Bible... of what He has revealed of Himself. I don't claim to know everything, but I do know that He has shown a consistent love for humanity, which culminated in sacrificing Himself to die for the sins of the world. Why did He have to die? Because it was the only way His love and His perfect justice could be reconciled. The following is taken from a sermon by the preacher, Paul Washer: "...This is the greatest problem in the Bible: If God is good He can’t forgive you. If God is righteous and Holy, He cannot forgive you... If God is just how can He, just simply, as He says, turn His back to your sin. How can He cover your sin? How can He cast your sin away from you as far as the east is from the west? Literally, in the book of Psalms, and again in Romans Chapter 4. It is He "covers it!" What do we think about...more a judge who sweeps crimes under the rug? Do we call Him righteous? No we don’t, do we? We call him corrupt. Is he maintaining righteousness? Absolutely not! He is defaming righteousness. You see therein lies the great problem in the Bible. God is righteous! And because He is righteous, and because He is holy. And guess what? Because He is love, He hates. He hates evil. Some people say, "Well God is love therefore He doesn’t hate." No God is love, and therefore He must hate. He hates evil. He can’t just turn His back on evil. And He can’t just turn His back on your evil. Or my evil or on anyone else's evil. God is a righteous judge. And shall not the judge of all of the earth do right? So the great question in the Bible is: How can God be just and yet simply forgive wicked men? How can He do it? The answer is in the person of Jesus Christ. And this is what so many people do not understand about the Cross. God in His righteousness condemns man. Every man, everyone here, everyone who has ever walked the planet since Adam. Condemned, in our sin. And all of the religion, all of the church going, everything else that you might want to add to it. It’s not going to help you one bit. You're condemned. To be in heaven you must be perfect. Have perfect righteousness, and none of us have that! And God cannot do it any other way because He is righteous! He cannot sweep your sin in a basket or under a rug. So God in His righteousness condemns you and me and all have humanity. And then God in His love becomes a man and He lives the life you could not live. The life that I could not live. Not only is He avoiding sin. But at the same time He is living a life of perfect righteousness. Not only avoiding the negative, but always doing the positive. A perfect righteous life. And then that Son of God, He goes to Calvary. And on Calvary He dies! But now here is the problem. When you hear all of those Easter sermons and everything else, mainly what do you hear? You hear about the Romans nailing Him to a tree and beating Him and stabbing Him with a lance. And you hear about all of the things that the Romans did to Jesus and it killed Him. And when you hear that kind of preaching, that kind of preaching is totally missing the point! We are not saved from our sins because the Romans beat up Jesus and killed Him! We are saved from our sins because when He was on the tree all of your sin was imputed to Him, and then God in heaven turned away from His only Son – not because He lacked the moral fortitude to see Him suffer – No! He turned away from His only Son because His only Son became sin! And the separation from God, that you should experience that I should experience throughout all of eternity. The Son of God experienced on that tree! And then there was not just the negative withdrawal of God’s presence from Christ so that He cried out "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" ("My God, my God why have you forsaken me?") But then all the full force of God’s wrath of His holy hatred against you. And your crimes. And me, and my crimes. That as a Holy God He must pour out. He poured out on His own Son! As the prophet in Isaiah 53 verse 10 says: And it pleased the Lord to crush the Messiah! To crush Him under the full force of His wrath! You know, many of you have read the Bible. He is in the garden and He cries out "Let this cup pass from me, let this cup pass from me, let this cup pass from me." Three times. Do you honestly think that our Savior was afraid of a Roman lance? So many people think that when Jesus is looking at this cup He is thinking about the Cross, and the beatings and everything else. And it causes Him to sweat drops of blood. Really? How is it then that all of the apostles but John, and countless of martyrs, went to the Cross and church history tells us they were singing hymns. They were full of joy at being crucified like their Lord. So how is it that they had more boldness than their Savior? Jesus was not sweating drops of blood in the garden simply because of a Roman cross. It was because He had always dwelt in the bosom of the Father perfect delight between one another. He had always been the beloved Son in whom the Father was well pleased. And on that tree the Father withdrew His presence from His Son, as He should from us. And His Father crushed His Son! That’s what was in the cup. The wrath of almighty God against every sin that we’ve committed. And He drank it down. And when He cried out "It is finished!" He turned the cup over and not one drop came out. He drank it all. Paid in full. And He died. And on the third day He was raised. By His own power, by the Spirit’s power. By the power of the Father, He was raised. And Romans tells us that that is God’s sign, that it is God’s vindication of His Son and proof that the death He died on Calvary was sufficient to pay for all your sins. So what does it mean to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God? It’s not just "I love His teachings and I follow Him." It is this: I have nothing, I have no righteousness, I have no hope, except what God did for me on Calvary. And in the resurrection of Christ from the dead. That is my hope..." There were very good reasons why God allowed for the destruction of the Canaanites. As I said before, it was for the protection of the bloodline of Christ. But there is another reason.. Canaan was filled with what the Bible called Nephilim or Rephaim. You need to go back to Genesis 6 to see what these were: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." - Genesis 6:1-4 As repulsive as the thought is, we are told the fallen angels came down and mated with women to produce giants. I believe "men of old / renown" means these were what people such as the Greeks referred to as the Titans (example: Hercules - half man, half god). I believe the stories in those cultures became corrupted but were based on these original occurrences in ancient times. The Bible tells us that these giants were around in those days and ALSO afterward (Goliath would be one example).. after what? After the flood. The flood happened because all humanity (except Noah's line) was corrupted. Satan's plan was to corrupt the bloodline of all mankind, thereby preventing the Messiah from ever being born. The flood fixed that. But these creatures would make another appearance later. After Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, do you know they found the promised land but disobeyed out of fear and were punished by having to travel around in the desert for 40 years? Do you wonder what they were so afraid of? The spies that were sent into the land to scout it out came back to tell of giants: "And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." - Numbers 13:33. The Israelites were terrified... but later when they came back they obeyed and were told to destroy them all. Have you never thought it amazing how so many cultures around the world have had many similarities? And I'm not just talking about the megaliths and pyramids found all over the place.. but here are 3 of the most interesting things that stick out to me: 1. Legends of the Flood (It is estimated there are over 500 flood legends) These flood tales are frequently linked by common elements that parallel the Biblical account including the warning of the coming flood, the construction of a boat in advance, the storage of animals, the inclusion of family, and the release of birds to determine if the water level had subsided. The overwhelming consistency among flood legends found in distant parts of the globe indicates they were derived from the same origin (the Bible's record), but oral transcription has changed the details through time. 2. Dragons.. the stories are not only in western culture, but oriental and pretty much everywhere. Look at the Ica stones from Peru as well. Why is this? Even Marco Polo came back saying that He saw dragons in the far east. I think these dragons (probably not fire breathing) used to exist and people killed them off the same way people kill of predators nowadays... to protect their livestock from being eaten... not to mention if you could kill a dragon, you'd be a hero for the town. After so many centuries of their extinction they fell into myth and legend.. until someone dug up some bones and didn't know what they were, so gave them the name, Dinosaurs. 3. Giants - stories of these things are in cultures all around the world... including even the native Americans. Why would so many people in different parts of the world all believe these things? There you have your answer to the Canaanites question, as well as some extra material to think about.
                                                  • [ – ] smithpolly parent reply Discipulus : So are you saying that if God asked you to stone a baby to death that you would judge that is a bad thing for God to do and you would refuse?
                                                    • [ – ] discipulus parent reply I would say that if someone believed God told them to kill a baby, it wasn't God but either a case of insanity or the evil one, Satan. And isn't it quite ironic how our society only pretends to care about babies when it suits them in arguments like this, but are quite content to slaughter millions of them every year by abortion and some are even pushing for after-birth abortion up 'til 2 years of age. I won't play your game, buddy... like I said before, you're not interested in discussing the existence of God.. you are merely looking for a reason to ignore the subject altogether.. to laugh it off. Go ahead; nobody is stopping you. I wish you the best.. no sarcasm; I mean that.
                                                      • smithpolly parent reply Discipulus : So In other words, you are telling me that if God asked you to kill a baby you would judge that that would be an evil thing for God to do? You do not think that God has the right to ask you to kill a baby.
  • Ric11 reply Excellent food for thought here. I'm a recent refugee here from Youtube.
  • [ – ] discipulus reply Very good debate, but I have to say I was disappointed in the poor argument that if God can change the future, then he can't know the future for certain. That's silly. If He changes it, He knows what it will be, if He doesn't change it, He knows what it will be. Here is a good example: If I am holding a glass over a balcony, I can know for certain that it will break if I choose to drop it and I can know for certain it won't break if I choose not to drop it. I have the power to choose either. Now with God it's the same thing but with infinite power and knowledge. The brothers, however, made a very good argument: can God make a rock too heavy for Himself to pick up? Now that's a very interesting question indeed. Also, to be clear, I have to say I love your videos, Stefan. Honestly, I eagerly await every new video of yours. That being said, in my humble opinion it appears you do make a few silly statements when it comes to debating Theism vs. Atheism. For example, saying God must be bou...morend to the laws of evolution.. that's ridiculous. The whole idea of God is that He is the beginning of everything that is... that includes all of time, space and matter... how could God himself be bound by what He created? Silly. And with regards to the point that you were trying to make about not being able to know anything about God: that is very true; we would know absolutely nothing whatsoever, UNLESS this all powerful, all knowing being decided to make certain aspects of Himself known to us. Whether he did or not is another matter, but of course it's possible. Although I do believe in God myself, I'm not arguing here over His existence, bur rather that some of the arguments presented were flawed (no offense). Overall though, great debate. Would love to hear more from both sides. Keep up the great work.
  • Nathan55 reply Tip tip tip $$$$
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