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  • [ – ] Embrace-your-sorrow reply How's Death of the Author relativism/overthinking though (or how does it lead to that)? I know nothing of LOGH's author, and yet I can see the themes of war, human history and of affecting the world through action because they're clearly presented through the events. It's a show's/manga's/book's/etc responsibility to deliver and explore its themes. The guy talking about Digibro's light novel was affected by knowlege who the author was. I doubt he'd the say the same things about any other similar novel if it wouldn't be written by Digibro. Relativism's utter garbage though, won't argue against that.
    • [ – ] ThatAnimeSnob parent reply Would the guy say the same things if he didn't know digibro? No.
      • Embrace-your-sorrow parent reply That's what I mean. If the author would've been dead to him (ergo he would only care about the novel on its own merits), he wouldn't have praised it. If anything, bringing the author into evaluation kind of opened a new road for overthinking for the guy.
    • [ – ] Tomislavr7 parent reply I think he mixed up evaluation and interpretation. 1) "Some say you should always separate the artist from the art." 1a) "Some say that knowing about the author can only cloud judgement when evaluating a work." 1b) "Knowing about the author and the circumstances helps to understand the message easier and also to get where the work's value lies." - Here he shows that 1 is not true. 2) "Some say 1b is unnecessary for 1a, this is also known as the death of the author." And here different interpretations (death of the author) turn into different evaluations (relativism) and he says relativism is bad, which it is. Cheers.
      • [ – ] Embrace-your-sorrow parent reply I see. It does make sense, but a bit convoluted. If the point is that what the author's been trying to make should dictate how it's supposed to be evaluated then it's a question of standards. JoJo, for example, should be judged as a Rule of Cool driven show because it is such, but it's clear from watching the show itself, not from knowing Araki himself. I do think that, although sometimes leading to one another, Death of the Author and relativism aren't inherently connected. It's a matter of how far does Death of Author go. It's one thing to disregard the creator's personality and beliefs and a completely another to add something to his work from yourself. It also goes into an issue of accepting something for what it is. I do enjoy Code Geass for the trainwreck that it is, but if I were to evaluate it, I would evaluate it as a show that tries to tell a mature story and fails at it. But then again, I have no need to know the author for any of that. The whole argument is "if we take the ...moreDeath of the Author to the extreme, we would end up in relativism", which I agree with, but it just means that we shouldn't take it to the extreme. Knowing the author may help (or it may not), but it isn't strictly necessary.
        • [ – ] Tomislavr7 parent reply Actually, I was trying to say that the later part of 2 makes no sense because he turned interpretation into evaluation for no reason. Death of the author and relativism indeed aren't connected because death of the author only makes the interpretations limitless, while still having only one evaluation, which is not relativism. I'd argue against death of the author in that there's no reason not to know information which is often convenient in interpretation, since interpretation itself relies on induction, and the things we might know about the origin of the work can contain quite a few things to make things seem more certain. So while everyone will indeed have their own perception of a work, people should try to make it less random all the time. Relativism is when you say any evaluation is fine, so you'd need to make the mistake of confusing interpretation with evaluation first, instead of keeping them separate in an overview of a work (you don't give something extra points because i...moret's new/old, written by a cool person, talking about certain things, first/best/most popular of its genre or whatever else, even if it's worth mentioning). Cheers.
          • [ – ] Tomislavr7 parent reply And with less random interpretation, you learn about specific cases and how people tend to think, same as what people do with history. It might not be 100% correct, but it helps build up experience.
            • [ – ] Embrace-your-sorrow parent reply My response's rather late, but still. I just want to make a couple of points, not strictly related to Snob's original video. Death of the author is a concept which when taken to the extreme gets highly relativistic by implying that interpretations dictate evaluation. Disregarding death of the author, though, can lead to relativism as well, as shown by the guy praising the Digibro's light novel because of its author. So, my stance on this is that death of the author is by no means a necessary nor helpful part of the evaluation, but the author's identity shouldn't dictate the evaluation either. The themes of the show don't make it good or bad. Both Code Geass and LOGH have similar themes, yet the differences in execution make them significantly different from each other. A value of the work lies in it's execution regardless of what themes it tries to explore. So not only the interpreations should be less random, they should be considered less important when evaluating. I agree with your...more points that a work should be able to stand on its own merits. I would praise Hokuto no Ken for how inspirational it is, but wouldn't evaluate it based on that.
              • [ – ] Tomislavr7 parent reply I think we are kind of rewording each other a lot and pretty much agree everywhere but maybe on this point: "Death of the author is a concept which when taken to the extreme gets highly relativistic by implying that interpretations dictate evaluation. Disregarding death of the author, though, can lead to relativism as well, as shown by the guy praising the Digibro's light novel because of its author." Death of the author is not related to evaluation, but to interpretation. The author should generally matter during interpretation (so death of the author is a bad idea) and the author should absolutely not matter during evaluation (death of the author doesn't claim this, too, because it only talks about interpretation). This is what you said later on, too. Relativism is related to evaluation because it claims everything is of relative quality. An interpretation can be of good quality (with a lot to build it on) or of bad quality (baseless). Relativism would claim that every interpreta...moretion is of relative quality which death of the author can lead to. So death of the author can be considered a mistake in interpretation (since it removes some things an interpretation can be built on). The other example you used (with the guy praising Digibro's light novel) is a mistake in evaluation because he took the author into account. Cheers.
                • [ – ] Embrace-your-sorrow parent reply I agree with everything, but I think that you missed one point. Death of the author is indeed only related to interpretation. But what I was arguing against is interpretation affecting evaluation. Relativism comes into play by claiming that evaluation should be based on interpretation ("since different people may have different interpretations and quality is connected to interpretation, the quality is in the eyes of the viewer" or along those lines). "Death of the author is not related to evaluation, but to interpretation. The author should generally matter during interpretation (so death of the author is a bad idea) and the author should absolutely not matter during evaluation (death of the author doesn't claim this, too, because it only talks about interpretation)." Basically, yes, that's my main point. I just constantly see people basing evaluation on interpretation. I think at this point we agree and understand each other pretty well, I just wanted to clarify this.
  • Klaudijus reply That reminds me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM
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